Ranking Web (Webometrics) of Universities

[Isidro F. Aguillo]

Quoting :

> You write:
>
> "Then, what is the difference with "publish or perish"?"
>
> Well: performativity is a quite different thing than publish or 
> perish! When you
> publish a paper (for whatever reason) you produce a unit of something 
> definite.
> When you bring people you adapt to an indicator based on web 
> visibility they do
> not produce anything new but just make it visible on the web. Why 
> should THAT be
> an indicator of anything other than making it "visible"? This  has no clear
> meaning and you just create a universe based on a self-fulfilling prophecy in
> which people take the indicator for the reality instead of looking at the
> reality and then trying to get a good indicator for it. And producing 
> that every
> year has no interest since a university is a big inertial boat that 
> cannot move
> fast in a year. So this is JUST marketing. I predict that this line 
> of thought
> will bring university managers to evaluate people on their "Twitter" 
> visibility
> soon, even though talk on twitter is no ore than conversation over a 
> beer at a
> bar. This could not be measured however, so we did not care. NOW we 
> can measure
> tweets easily so we will do it without thinking hard about what that practice
> means exactly and without thinking about the consequences of creating such
> dubious pseudo-indicators.

Interesting. You are defending the web is only a platform for "marketing" knowledge already available by other sources. Even if there are specific web contents, they are not interesting, useful or have enough quality at all to be analyzed with informetric methods.

The calendar say we are in 2012 and the scenario you described is no longer correct. There is a lot of genuine new scientific knowledge on the web, of course scientific papers, but other contents that were never available in other formats. And those contents are the ones we are focusing (tweets not for now as trending topics in science is completely unrelated with research fronts identification, is not?)

"Web publish or perish" is as legitimate as "Publish or perish"

> You also write:
>
> "Temperature: So, do you prefer measuring "specific" movement of millions of
>> molecules in a glass of water than applying an "overall" thermometer. This a
>> good example of what an INDICATOR is".
>>
>
> But temperature is homogeneous (and so is different from humidity); 
> it is not a
> composite indicator at all. Adding different indicators (as I suggested by
> saying to add temperature to humidity) cannot produce a well defined 
> indicator
> when they are are heterogeneous.
> Conclusion: less urge on measuring anything obvious and more thought on what
> exactly a given indicator means before concelling universities to 
> adapt to it.
> It took time to construct a good thermometer and distinguishing it from the
> measure of humidity...

>From exactly this point of view, what is the difference between combining number of papers and number of citations and combining webpages and weblinks?

Best regards, 

> Best regards
>
> Yves Gingras
>
>
> Surlignage "Isidro F. Aguillo" <isidro.aguillo at cchs.csic.es>:
>
>> Quoting Yves Gingras:
>>
>> > Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> > http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >
>> > You write:
>> >
>> > “Even more interesting we are able to identify reasons (web bad
>> practices)
>> > for major discrepancies. And we can offer advice and our results are
>> useful
>> > for many universities”.
>> >
>> > But this is obviously a tautology based oin the performative aspect of
>> the
>> > indicator!
>>
>> Thanks. This is easy: Then, what is the difference with "publish or perish"?
>>
>>
>> > You are in fact saying: “1) I define performance with  the presence on
>> the
>> > web; 2) your institution is not there or badly ranked, then 3) get a
>> better
>> > web and you will be defined as having a better “performance”... It is
>> > exactly liked rankings based on books in college  libraries: we do not
>> know
>> > if that means the college is really better than any other but DO buy
>> books
>> > if your college is badly ranked!
>>
>> This is a misunderstanding. We are NOT measuring web design nor 
>> usability. We
>> are measuring academic contents produced by faculty members, researchers or
>> technicians and their impact in a truly global huge audience. It is not
>> enough to publish on the web, in order to receive links these 
>> contents should
>> be good, useful or interesting independently of their appearance.
>>
>> > I fail to see how this is a real discovery or contribution. It is exactly
>> > like a marketing company saying what color of a tie you should wear to
>> pass
>> > on TV.
>>
>> Sorry? So, if we analyze your list of papers we are making science but if we
>> consider your academic webpages, are we making "marketing"?
>>
>> > We are far from measuring specific, as opposed to “overall” (whatever
>> that
>> > means) performance of an institution. Using a mix of heterogeneous
>> > indicators will always permit one to say that the mix bag represent the
>> > “overall” activity of an institution. It is like saying that the sum
>> of
>> > temperature and humidity gives the “overall weather” as opposed to
>> > temperature.
>>
>> Temperature: So, do you prefer measuring "specific" movement of millions of
>> molecules in a glass of water than applying an "overall" thermometer. This a
>> good example of what an INDICATOR is.
>>
>> And, please do not forget the empirical results.
>>
>> Best,
>>
>> >
>> > Best regards
>> >
>> >
>> > Yves
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > Le 31/08/12 13:18, « Isidro F. Aguillo » <isidro.aguillo at cchs.csic.es>
>> a
>> > écrit :
>> >
>> >> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html Quoting Yves Gingras:
>> >>
>> >>> > Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>> > http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>> >
>> >>> > The vagueness of the indicator is here componded by the arbitrary
>> >>> > ponderation: why 50%? Why not 10% for links and 80% for citations?
>> >>
>> >> The ponderation is based in a model following a ratio 1:1 between
>> >> activity and
>> >> impact, so 50% for each. Basically it is he same ratio that
>> >> everybody uses in
>> >> bibliometrics between papers and citations.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>  This just
>> >>> > confirms that a composite indicator of heterogeneous measures has no
>> >>> > definite meaning. Also: is being ³linked to² or being ³visited by²
>> many
>> >>> > people really measuring something definite?
>> >>
>> >> Never, in no place we have defended the use of visits for the same
>> reasons
>> >> most of the people does not use journal circulation for scientific
>> >> evaluation.
>> >>
>> >> Linking is an intellectual action and if you are linking academic
>> >> contents is
>> >> because they are interesting or useful according to your criteria,
>> >> If you are
>> >> a scientist the motivations for linking are not far different that the
>> ones
>> >> for citing.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> It seems here that numbers are
>> >>> > used because they are available even though nobody knows what they
>> mean
>> >>> > exactly. We should strive to build indicators the meaning of which we
>> >>> > control to make sure we can then understand they variation over time:
>> we
>> >>> > know a thermometer measures temperature and not humidity (for
>> >>> which we need
>> >>> > a hygrometer) but if we we add (or multiply) one with the other we
>> any
>> >>> > precise informatino on temperature...
>> >>
>> >> My hypothesis is that our "thermometer" is able to measure overall
>> >> university
>> >> performance. The empirical results correlate highly with other rankings
>> >> including bibliometric ones; Harvard, MIT, Standford in top, Cambridge,
>> >> Oxford, ETH Zurich heading Europe, Tokyo first in Asia or Sao Paulo
>> >> first for
>> >> Latinamerica.
>> >>
>> >> Even more interesting we are able to identify reasons (web bad
>> >> practices) for
>> >> major discrepancies. And we can offer advice and our results are useful
>> for
>> >> many universities.
>> >>
>> >> Best regards,
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>> > Best regards
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Yves Gingras
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Le 31/08/12 11:39, « Isidro F. Aguillo »
>> <isidro.aguillo at CCHS.CSIC.ES> a
>> >>> > écrit :
>> >>> >
>> >>>> >> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>> >> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>>> >> Dear Loet:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>  Not sure. My first candidate is the number of webeditors and the
>> >>>> university
>> >>>> >> policies about contributors. 1000s scholars building rich
>> >>>> personal pages
>> >>>> are
>> >>>> >> far more effective than a well paid webmaster.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>  Also, do not forget that web publications is only 50% of the
>> total.
>> >>>> >> The other
>> >>>> >> 50% is impact or link visibility, ie the number of inlinks you
>> received
>> >>>> that
>> >>>> >> in the case of top universities means thousands of people linking
>> >>>> >> ("citing" a
>> >>>> >> webpage) to the university webdomain.
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>  Best,
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>  El 31/08/2012 16:32, Loet Leydesdorff escribió:
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>> >>
>> >>>>> >>> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>>> >>> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html   Re:
>> >>>>> [SIGMETRICS] Ranking
>> > Web
>> >>>>> >>> (Webometrics) of Universities
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Dear Isidro,
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Yet, the web-ranks may (partially) correlate with the budgets of
>> the
>> >>>>> >>> webmasters. J
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Could you test this?
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Best,
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Loet
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> From: ASIS&T Special Interest Group on Metrics
>> >>>>> >>> [mailto:SIGMETRICS at LISTSERV.UTK.EDU] On Behalf Of Isidro F.
>> Aguillo
>> >>>>> >>>  Sent: Friday, August 31, 2012 4:29 PM
>> >>>>> >>>  To: SIGMETRICS at LISTSERV.UTK.EDU
>> >>>>> >>>  Subject: Re: [SIGMETRICS] Ranking Web (Webometrics) of
>> Universities
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>>> >>> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>>>> >>> <http://web.utk.edu/%7Egwhitney/sigmetrics.html>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>> Dear Yves:
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  There is no a single answer, but many possible candidate
>> answers:
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  - Scientific discoveries should be communicated, preferably not
>> >>>>> >>> only to the
>> >>>>> >>> scientists working at rich western organizations. Today Web
>> >>>>> is the most
>> >>>>> >>> universal and cheaper scholarly communication tool. Ranking
>> MEASURES
>> > the
>> >>>>> >>> amount of new knowledge generated and how much is published
>> >>>>> in an open
>> >>>>> >>> format.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  - Most of the scientists are not only producing papers in formal
>> >>>>> >>> international journals, but their activities are richer and
>> >>>>> >>> diverse. Ranking
>> >>>>> >>> MEASURES all the outputs, formal and informal, if they
>> >>>>> publish them on
>> > the
>> >>>>> >>> Web.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  - Universities (specially public ones) are investing a lot, not
>> only
>> > in
>> >>>>> >>> research, but in other different missions. For example promoting
>> >>>>> distance
>> >>>>> >>> learning (through web platforms), supplying information about
>> their
>> >>>>> >>> governance (transparency), attracting talented students and
>> >>>>> prestigious
>> >>>>> >>> professors through internationalization of their web contents,
>> >>>>> supplying
>> >>>>> >>> information of their technological developments in their
>> specialized
>> > web
>> >>>>> >>> portals and so on. Ranking MEASURES all these different activities
>> if
>> >>>>> they
>> >>>>> >>> are making public in the Web.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  These are only a few examples.
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>  El 31/08/2012 15:55, Yves Gingras escribió:
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>>>> >>>> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>>>>> >>>> <http://web.utk.edu/%7Egwhitney/sigmetrics.html>  These
>> >>>>>> results show
>> > that
>> >>>>>> >>>> the ³indicator² is dubious and does not really indicate
>> anything
>> >>>>>> >>>> specific...
>> >>>>>> >>>> Instead of writing that the  use of web domains is
>> >>>>>> ³penalizing their
>> >>>>>> >>>> position in the Ranking², one should instead conclude that
>> using
>> >>>>>> >>>> web domains
>> >>>>>> >>>> to ³rank² institutions is dubious since it misrepresent the
>> >>>>>> >>>> reality: should
>> >>>>>> >>>> institutions adapt to indicators OR should indicators be adapted
>> to
>> > the
>> >>>>>> >>>> reality of institutions???... Before multiplying ³indicators²
>> maybe
>> > one
>> >>>>>> >>>> should first ask the basic question: ³what on earth does this
>> thing
>> >>>>>> really
>> >>>>>> >>>> MEASURE?²
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Yves Gingras
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Le 31/08/12 05:02, « Isidro F. Aguillo »
>> >>>>>> <isidro.aguillo at CCHS.CSIC.ES>
>> >>>>>> >>>> <mailto:isidro.aguillo at CCHS.CSIC.ES>  a écrit :
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>>>> >>>> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>>>>> >>>> <http://web.utk.edu/%7Egwhitney/sigmetrics.html>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  El 31/08/2012 10:31, Clement Levallois escribió:
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>> Adminstrative info for SIGMETRICS (for example unsubscribe):
>> >>>>>> >>>> http://web.utk.edu/~gwhitney/sigmetrics.html
>> >>>>>> >>>> <http://web.utk.edu/%7Egwhitney/sigmetrics.html>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Interesting!
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  In the ranking for Europe, not a single French university in
>> the
>> >>>>>> >>>> 100 first?
>> >>>>>> >>>> Wow.
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  (see here:
>> >>>>>> http://www.webometrics.info/en/Ranking_Europe/European_Union)
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> <http://www.webometrics.info/en/Ranking_Europe/European_Union%29>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Best,
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Clement
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  --------------------------------------------
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Clement Levallois, PhD
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Erasmus University Rotterdam
>> >>>>>> >>>>   The Netherlands
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   pro website
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> <http://www.erim.eur.nl/ERIM/People/Person_Details?p_aff_id=4321>
>> >>>>>> /
>> >>>>>> >>>> personal website <http://www.clementlevallois.net/>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  twitter and skype: @seinecle
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Discover the NESSHI project: http://www.nesshi.eu
>> >>>>>> <http://www.nesshi.eu/>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>> Dear all:
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   You can check the Excellence indicator (papers in the 10% top
>> >>>>>> >>>> cited) that
>> >>>>>> >>>> Paris 6 is 28th and Paris XI is 98th so the reasons for the
>> delayed
>> >>>>>> ranks
>> >>>>>> >>>> are related to the web presence. Language is an important issue
>> as
>> >>>>>> >>>> English-speaking countries are clearly over-represented but
>> >>>>>> it is not
>> > the
>> >>>>>> >>>> only reason. Perhaps interesting to this list is that the
>> >>>>>> >>>> commitment to open
>> >>>>>> >>>> access is limited. You can check the performance of the French
>> >>>>>> university
>> >>>>>> >>>> repositories here:
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   http://repositories.webometrics.info/en/Europe/France
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   It is very surprising that in some cases they have
>> surrendered
>> >>>>>> their own
>> >>>>>> >>>> web domains in their "institutional" repositories. A few
>> examples:
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   École Polytechnique
>> >>>>>> http://hal-polytechnique.archives-ouvertes.fr/
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Université Paris 1 Panthéon Sorbonne
>> >>>>>> >>>> http://hal-paris1.archives-ouvertes.fr/
>> >>>>>> >>>>   École Mines ParisTech
>> http://hal-ensmp.archives-ouvertes.fr/
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Université de Nice Sophia Antipolis
>> >>>>>> >>>> http://hal-unice.archives-ouvertes.fr/
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Of course this practice is penalizing their position in the
>> >>>>>> Ranking.
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>   Best,
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Yves Gingras
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Professeur
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Département d'histoire
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Centre interuniversitaire de recherche
>> >>>>>> >>>>  sur la science et la technologie (CIRST)
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Chaire de recherche du Canada en histoire
>> >>>>>> >>>>  et sociologie des sciences
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Observatoire des sciences et des technologies (OST)
>> >>>>>> >>>>  UQAM
>> >>>>>> >>>>  C.P. 8888, Succ. Centre-Ville
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Montréal, Québec
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Canada, H3C 3P8
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Tel: (514)-987-3000-7053
>> >>>>>> >>>>  Fax: (514)-987-7726
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>>> >>>>  http://www.chss.uqam.ca
>> >>>>>> >>>>  http://www.cirst.uqam.ca
>> >>>>>> >>>>  http://www.ost.uqam.ca
>> >>>>>> >>>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>>>> >>>
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Yves Gingras
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Professeur
>> >>> > Département d'histoire
>> >>> > Centre interuniversitaire de recherche
>> >>> > sur la science et la technologie (CIRST)
>> >>> > Chaire de recherche du Canada en histoire
>> >>> > et sociologie des sciences
>> >>> > Observatoire des sciences et des technologies (OST)
>> >>> > UQAM
>> >>> > C.P. 8888, Succ. Centre-Ville
>> >>> > Montréal, Québec
>> >>> > Canada, H3C 3P8
>> >>> >
>> >>> > Tel: (514)-987-3000-7053
>> >>> > Fax: (514)-987-7726
>> >>> >
>> >>> > http://www.chss.uqam.ca
>> >>> > http://www.cirst.uqam.ca
>> >>> > http://www.ost.uqam.ca
>> >>> >
>> >>> >
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>> >
>> >
>> > Yves Gingras
>> >
>> > Professeur
>> > Département d'histoire
>> > Centre interuniversitaire de recherche
>> > sur la science et la technologie (CIRST)
>> > Chaire de recherche du Canada en histoire
>> > et sociologie des sciences
>> > Observatoire des sciences et des technologies (OST)
>> > UQAM
>> > C.P. 8888, Succ. Centre-Ville
>> > Montréal, Québec
>> > Canada, H3C 3P8
>> >
>> > Tel: (514)-987-3000-7053
>> > Fax: (514)-987-7726
>> >
>> > http://www.chss.uqam.ca
>> > http://www.cirst.uqam.ca
>> > http://www.ost.uqam.ca
>> >
>> >
>>
>> --
>> Isidro F. Aguillo, HonPhD
>> Cybermetrics Lab (3C1). CCHS - CSIC
>> Albasanz, 26-28. 28037 Madrid. Spain
>>
>> isidro.aguillo @ cchs.csic.es
>> www. webometrics.info
>
>
>
>

-- 
Isidro F. Aguillo, HonPhD
Cybermetrics Lab (3C1). CCHS - CSIC
Albasanz, 26-28. 28037 Madrid. Spain

isidro.aguillo @ cchs.csic.es
www. webometrics.info
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