[Sigcr-l] New thread - Year of Cataloging Research as topic for 2010 SIG-...

Wed Jun 17 14:47:37 EDT 2009

 Noni:

+1

These are key issues in understanding the population of metadata out there.  Not all metadata is for access.   Some, as you say is for evidentiary purposes or to support the presumption of authenticity.  Thanks for sharing this!

-----Original Message-----
From: sigcr-l-bounces at asis.org [mailto:sigcr-l-bounces at asis.org] On Behalf Of Noni Oldfield
Sent: Thursday, June 11, 2009 3:06 PM
To: sigcr-l at asis.org; dsoergel at umd.edu
Subject: Re: [Sigcr-l] New thread - Year of Cataloging Research as topic for 2010 SIG-...

Dagobert

I can claim some practical understanding of this space, having
once been an "original cataloguer" in a specialist library, moved
on to "records management" and currently working as an enterprise
architect - information domain.

I see cataloguing as part of the world of metadata, not the
other way round. The key to this being your definition of
cataloguing metadata as being "... if used for discovering and
using information objects." Much of the metadata being used in my
own organisation is not primarily for discovery and access. It is
1) to provide business context - so that the information being
referred to is related to other like objects (for example within
the same business process) and/or 2) to provide evidence that
something has happened (for example this document was created in
response to that event by this person and has not been altered
since the time of creation). There is also, of course, 3) a
discovery element - which can certainly be considered
cataloguing.

Metadata in this form has some problems communicating with other
similar domains.
*The whole notion of needing to provide context to information
is one which my experience tells me the information technology
domain is unhappy with, because it embeds information within a
wider context, making the granular notion of clean data (like
isolated grains of sand) more difficult to work with.
Data/information becomes "sticky" and takes it's metadata along
with it.
*The wider uses for metadata tend to be overlooked by the
library/discovery/cataloguing domain because the use of metadata
for discovery is so very well developed compared with other uses.
This causes a bit of the "I have a hammer so everything is a
nail" syndrome.

I will not be able to attend the SIG, but wish you all both
entertainment and enlightenment from it.

Regards

Noni Oldfield
Senior Enterprise Domain Architect - Information
Enterprise Architecture
Inland Revenue Te Tari Taake
Wellington
NEW ZEALAND
Phone DDI +64 4 890 2952

>>> Dagobert Soergel <dsoergel at umd.edu> 11/06/2009 2:47 p.m.
>>>

Don, Robert,

You are exactly right.  Metadata is a term 
invented by those who have come somewhat lately 
to recognize the importance of cataloging.  But 
there are now two communities that overlap not all that much:

(1) the community of those concerned primarily 
with traditional library cataloging and
(2) the community of people concerned with 
cataloging ("metadata") of items on the Web and 
with cataloging other types of objects (where the 
term "metadata" is frequently misapplied).

Communication between these two communities is 
not as strong as it should be.  They can indeed learn from each
other.

The definition of metadata as "data about data" might be refined
to

Metadata =  data about information objects if 
used for discovering and using information objects.
"Metadatahood" resides not in the data themselves 
but in their use.  For further elaboration of this point see
www.dsoergel.com/DLF-JCDL2007Expanded.ppt, beginning at slide
36.

Contrary to common usage, data about a camera on 
a e-commerce Web site are not metadata, even 
though they look very similar to cataloging data 
about a book.  Even data in a library catalog can 
be used directly, as in counting the number of 
publication of a person; in this case, the data 
are not used as metadata (they are not used to 
find sources of information).  Data about a 
person are used as metadata if we are looking for 
a person as a source of information but not if we 
are looking for a person to hire for a job.

Dagobert

At 5/30/2009 04:02 PM, richards1000 at comcast.net wrote:
>Mr. Drumtra: Thank you for your interesting 
>message.  My understanding is that "metadata 
>practice" is the broader category, of which 
>"cataloging" is a wholly included 
>subcategory.  The category of "metadata 
>practice" concerns the creation and management 
>of information about other 
>information.  "Metadata practice" is a very 
>broad field that includes, among many other 
>kinds of practice, cataloging, archival 
>practice, records management, indexing & 
>abstracting, the creation of legal citators such 
>as Shepard's and KeyCite, knowledge management 
>within business organizations, and standards 
>activities related to all of these.  In my view, 
>cataloging is just a particular kind of metadata 
>practice, namely, the creation and management of 
>information about information resources, as 
>recorded in surrogates intended to be aggregated 
>in a particular kind of database, namely a 
>library catalog, usually featuring (at least) 
>author, title, and subject access, and usually 
>performed in conformance with standards.  See, 
>e.g., Lois Mai Chan, Cataloging and 
>Classification: An Introduction ch. 1 (2d ed. 
>1994).  In your view, what aspect of cataloging 
>is not included within the broader category of 
>"metadata practice"? Regards, Robert Richards 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>Robert C. Richards, Jr., J.D.*, M.S.L.I.S., M.A. 
>Law Librarian & Legal Information Consultant 
>Philadelphia, PA richards1000 at comcast.net Legal 
>Informatics Blog: 
>http://legalinformatics.wordpress.com Legal 
>Information Systems & Legal Informatics 
>Resources: 
>http://home.comcast.net/~richards1000/LegalInformationSystemsBibliography.htm

>Bankruptcy Research Guide: 
>http://home.comcast.net/~richards1000/CostEffectiveBankruptcyResearch.htm

>Twitter: http://twitter.com/richards1000 * 
>Member New York bar, retired status. 
>~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>----- Original Message ----- From: 
>Drumtra at aol.com To: sigcr-l at asis.org Sent: 
>Friday, May 29, 2009 6:05:46 PM GMT -05:00 
>US/Canada Eastern Subject: Re: [Sigcr-l] New 
>thread - Year of Cataloging Research as topic 
>for 2010 SIG-... At the risk of showing my 
>naivety, I am confused about the 
>distinction  being made between metadata and 
>cataloging. >From my library school work it 
>seems to me that one of the  aspects of 
>cataloging is generating metadata about the 
>books being cataloged.  That includes drawing on 
>AACR2R and soon to be RDA for description, 
>subject  headings and classification schemes for 
>organizing the books, and MARC,  DACS, and other 
>schemes for formatting and exchanging the 
>metadata. Metadata  practices include some 
>cataloging practices and cataloging 
>practices  include some metadata practices. Are 
>we not really saying, it is important to 
>consider what library  catalogers can teach 
>metadata specialists and what 
>metadata  specialists can teach library 
>catalogers? Don Drumtra Student iSchool University of Texas

>In a message dated 5/28/2009 21:24:05 Central 
>Daylight Time,  janeg at email.unc.edu writes: 
>Hope, i  like your list very much. of course i 
>am fond of your point about "what  metadata can 
>teach cataloging;" and i am thinking it is 
>equally important to  consider what "cataloging 
>can teach metadata" too. i love all of 
>the  sig/cr discussion that has taken place, and 
>will support any program, however  we label it 
>:) best wishes, jane On Wed, 27 May 2009, Hope 
>A  Olson wrote: > I would support the theme that 
>puts Library  Cataloging Research at the > 
>center and would encourage the inclusion  of 
>metadata (and other forms of > information 
>organization) in relation  to library 
>cataloging. Such topics > might include: > > 
>-  aspects of cataloging and metadata compared > 
>- shared principles  of > - cataloging and 
>metadata > - cataloging as the progenitor 
>of  metadata > - what metadata can teach 
>cataloging > - will  cataloging ultimately give 
>way to cataloging? > > I'm sure  collectively we 
>can think of others > > These would be in 
>addition  to core topics related to library 
>cataloging > among which I would  include the 
>principles, the users, the standards, > the 
>process, the  records, the databases, the 
>interfaces, the history, >  etc. > > Last year 
>we had a very stimulating workshop on 
>the  fairly specific > theme of organizing 
>images. This year's workshop is  on the theme > 
>Bridging Worlds, Connecting People: 
>Classification  Transcending > Boundaries (I 
>remind you that proposals for papers 
>and  posters are due > June 15) which stresses 
>perspective rather than  content. Going back to 
>a > content-oriented theme for next year 
>seems  reasonable to me - especially > given the 
>potential scope of library  cataloging 
>research. > > Somewhat related: I believe 
>someone  suggested changing the name of the > 
>SIG from Classification Research  to Information 
>Organization or > Knowledge Organization. Since 
>that is  what we do in practice, I think > that 
>makes sense. This year's theme  uses the term 
>"Classification," but > in reality it, like 
>previous  years, will go beyond classification 
>to > other aspects of 
>information  organization. > > Hope > > Hope A. 
>Olson, Professor  and Associate Dean > School of 
>Information Studies > 510G Bolton  Hall > 
>University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee > Milwaukee, 
>WI  53201 > USA > http://www.uwm.edu/Dept/SOIS > 
>email  holson at uwm.edu > 
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Dagobert Soergel
College of Information Studies
University of Maryland
4105 Hornbake Library
College Park, MD 20742-4345
Office: 301-405-2037     Home:  703-823-2840        Mobile:
703-585-2840
OFax:   301-314-9145        HFax: 703-823-6427
dsoergel at umd.edu     www.dsoergel.com 
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