[Sigia-l] Persistence

[Ziya Oz]

> But Ziya the ONLY reason that AJAX (if we must pick a term) works is
> that the Open Source community of Safari and Mozilla decided to
> implement something from the MSIE world (the ubiquity king).

You're really stuck on this. The ONLY reason Ajax took off is because the
NON-MSIE world grabbed an idea and ran with it, for MSIE had done hardly a
thing with it for so long!
 
> Mozilla instituting new technology does no one any good.

Once again, this won't be a Mozilla-only technology. *Because* it is open
source others (and I predict MSIE also in some fashion) will adopt it. This
is how technology adoption works. If you have a better way, clue me in.

> Again, just b/c it is OSS doesn't mean that it will gain enough
> traction to make a difference and 10% market share is a joke, unless
> that 10% is interesting enough to you. Just look at how many
> applications Safari users can't even use that are made by mainstream
> companies who can't be bothered.

Look, I said that today any serious web app would have to and does target
Firefox as a deployment platform, which wasn't the case just two years ago.
If you don't appreciate the significance of this, then I have nothing more
to add. 
 
> Why argue for technology?

Who the heck is "arguing for technology"?

Ajax shatters the page-by-page design shackles. You think that's
inconsequential for users?

Persistence will shatter online-offline design limitations. You think that's
of no real benefit to users?

Vector based browser UIs with GPU acceleration would shatter barriers to
scalable interfaces, smooth(er) migration among platforms/devices from
handhelds to PC monitors to giant TVs. Is that not a dream for designers?

> What does it give users?

That's between you and your imagination.

> JavaScript has no memory management for example. This is a standard
> requirement for good software programming

Without a context, this is pretty much meaningless. Not exactly sure what
you mean by "memory management" but things like automatic garbage collection
is a matter (mostly) of convenience. Obj C programmers have been creating
great software for about two decades without it, for example. Ref counting
and memory releasing may be less convenient to some but provide much more
granular control. 

> These aren't breakthrough designs, these are designs that I could do
> easily in more robust and mature languages.

First, let's not confuse the markup language of HTML, the HHTP protocol and
the programming language of JavaScript.

Second, JavaScript is a great language. Let me repeat that: JavaScript is a
great language. With Tamarin Adobe will be contributing source code for the
latest ActionScript 3.0 virtual machine (basis of Flash 9) to the Mozilla. A
lightweight, high-performance, Just-In-Time compiler right inside the
browser. Funny how open source works, huh?

Third, you need a better understanding of upcoming technology trends in this
space. A place to start:

<http://www.adobe.com/devnet/logged_in/ehuang_tamarin.html>

> Find me a developer who would CHOOSE to work in HTML/HTTP over other
> technologies if everything else was equal and I'd be REALLY REALLY surprised.

If pigs could fly what kind of bird would they be? I don't know. The point
is EVERYTHING ELSE IS NOT EQUAL.

> "truly robust mission critical enterprise class RIA"

I'm already lost in that straw man specification.

The question, in the year of our lord 2007, is NOT whether somebody's "truly
robust mission critical enterprise class RIA" can be duplicated in HTML, but
can designers actually rethink the whole proposition to deliver the results
without the baggage. Therein lies the future. Hint: Google.

> Things are progressing and this Mozilla 3 is taking things in a good
> direction, but as I said, why wait? Just build an extension for
> Firefox and IE now to do what you need and be done with it. Why wait
> for the Mozilla org to do it for you? That's basically all they've
> done themselves.

I don't even know where to begin to dissect that. While you're at it, why
not just write your own web browser, too?

----
Ziya

"Innovate as a last resort."