[Sigia-l] Re: Sigia-l Digest, Vol 2, Issue 27 (Out of office)
ALBERT LUKBAN
Albert.Lukban at slma.com
Mon Nov 22 03:19:26 EST 2004
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Thanks!
Albert
>>> sigia-l 11/22/04 03:15 >>>
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Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
Today's Topics:
1. Re: Google Scholar vs Citeseer and others (Tanya Rabourn)
2. Re: [aifia-members] IA research? (Peter Van Dijck)
3. Re: [aifia-members] IA research? (Thomas Vander Wal)
4. Re: IA research? (Peter Van Dijck)
5. Re: Re: [aifia-members] IA research? (Listera)
6. Re: IA research? and professionalism (AF Cossham)
7. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Listera)
8. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Andrew Boyd)
9. Re: IA research? and professionalism (AF Cossham)
10. Re: IA research? and professionalism (AF Cossham)
11. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Listera)
12. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Eric Scheid)
13. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Listera)
14. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Eric Scheid)
15. Re: IA research? and professionalism (Listera)
16. Re: IA research? (Dmitry Nekrasovski)
17. RE: IA research? and professionalism (Groot, Boyd de)
18. RE: IA research? (Patrick Neeman)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 18:42:04 -0500
From: Tanya Rabourn <tanya at pixelcharmer.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] Google Scholar vs Citeseer and others
To: Karl Fast <karl.fast at pobox.com>
Cc: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <F2CBB312-3C16-11D9-8FD3-000A27DD04FC at pixelcharmer.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed
On Nov 21, 2004, at 5:56 PM, Karl Fast wrote:
>> Isn't there a public API/SDK for Google Scholar? These sound like
>> third party opportunities. Given its target, folks at universities
>> will quickly come up specialized front-end apps, I'd assume.
>
> I don't know about Google Scholar, but Citeseer is OAI compliant, so
> you can query all their metadata programmatically (you can even
> download it all as one big file).
>
> http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/oai.html
>
> It doesn't look like Google has added any API support for Google
> Scholar. Not yet, at least.
I assume if they do then perhaps coming at it from the other direction
would be possible? Through Endnote I can search a variety of indexes
and library catalogs and add references from there. They're using
Z39.50.* Endnote might be a Z39.50 client only and unable to consume
resources via a web services API though (that would be a shame).
Relatedly, see the article in this month's issue of DLib mag, A
Service-Oriented Framework for Bibliography Management
http://www.dlib.org/dlib/november04/canos/11canos.html
-Tanya
* From Endnote 7 for mac
"EndNote is able to provide access to these remote sources using an
information retrieval protocol called 'Z39.50.' Z39.50 is widely
supported by libraries and information providers around the world as a
convenient method to access their library catalogs and reference
databases.
EndNote stores the information necessary to connect to and search these
online databases in individual connection files. Pre-configured
connection files are provided for a number of these sources. If
necessary, you can also customize or configure your own connections to
Z39.50-compliant databases.
Copyright 2003 Thomson ISI ResearchSoft"
------------------------------
Message: 2
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:36:01 +0100
From: Peter Van Dijck <peter at poorbuthappy.com>
Subject: [Sigia-l] Re: [aifia-members] IA research?
To: gcampbel at uwo.ca
Cc: sigia-l at asis.org, aifia-members at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <41A14281.7040105 at poorbuthappy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> Here's a question that can only be answered by those of you who are
deeper in
> the IA field than I am. [Please excuse the language that follows.]
Has your
> field ever had an "Oh, shit." moment? I don't mean, "Oh, shit. I'm in
over my
> head." We've all had those.
Maybe "oh shit! We're going to end up like so many other buzzwordy
fields: irrelevant." Maybe that's not scary enough though...
Peter
------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 20:38:00 -0500
From: Thomas Vander Wal <vanderwal at gmail.com>
Subject: [Sigia-l] Re: [aifia-members] IA research?
To: Peter Van Dijck <peter at poorbuthappy.com>
Cc: sigia-l at asis.org, aifia-members at lists.ibiblio.org
Message-ID: <6906470504112117381291640 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Peter --
I agree with the seemingly stale nature of IA. I think there are a
lot of innovative things going on, but few are bubbling up in
research. The whole design field, of which IA is only a part, is
getting more and more splintered. The last couple of years have seem
splinter professional groups pop-up, increasingly with the same folks
on the boards. These differentiations are breaking the discussions,
adding different terminology for the same subjects that things split.
Clients are confused, innovation is trapped in the splinters, great
ideas are compartmentalized, and everybody is suffering. I completely
agree that we need to be listening to outsiders, everybody should, and
we should stop making groups of outsiders. IA is only a slice in a
larger design world, see Peter Boersma's "Model-T"
(http://www.peterboersma.com/blog/2004/11/t-model-big-ia-is-now-ux.html)
for a clearer idea how things fit together.
There are incredible volumes of research and lessons learned that are
imbedded in various disciplines that IA has not paid much attention.
There are wonderful discussions on cross-discipline vocabularies,
which is what the folksonomies are actually solving. We desparately
need to open our eyes to see other disciplines and build cross-walks
to their terminologies and build on their experiences.
For the last couple years I have been talking about the need to stop
designing for getting the information infront of the user.
Findability is great, but it is just a start as once people find the
info they are often actually burdend by having information in unusable
formats or not having the ability to use the information easily in
standard formats. Additionally, the folksonomy-enabled tools allow
people to not only call items they find something that makes sense to
themselves the tools help open up information for others with a
similar vocabulary. Recalling information for reuse is a huge part of
information reuse and we are in a prime spot to help move this
enabling along. Part of the limiting is seeing regular folks often do
not work in heirarchies, but more flat term definitions. As regular
people start adding more information, with out formal systems we are
going to see much more flat terminology structures emerging.
We are moving to a world where more information can be added to the
world around us and even applied to physical items (some are actually
living just fine in this future). The flood of information, which is
incresingly being added in with metadata in flat structures, has the
propensity to turn from the "scent of information" into the "stench of
information". Building structures and tools that ease and enable
getting the needed information from all locations and to us when we
desire is the key.
Do we have the right toolset? Most likely not. We still are relying
on "navigation" as a metaphor, which only encoruages this "screen as
the dead end" mentality. We know building with this cul-de-sac
mentality is wrong, but many still embrace it rather than actually
thinking and working toward something that may provide a smoother flow
of information through the user's life. I have been working on one
means of doing this for the past three years or more in the Model of
Attraction and the Personal InfoCloud, and there must be more out
there or we are really sunk.
All the best,
Thomas
On Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:32:18 +0100, Peter Van Dijck
<peter at poorbuthappy.com> wrote:
> Apologies for cross posting and for pointing to a blog entry and for
the
> long link.
>
> I wrote a long rambling entry about (the lack of) IA research and
> innovation. Are we building a practice and a body of knowledge, or are
> we slowly dying out? Again, apologies for linking, but here goes:
>
> http://poorbuthappy.com/ease/archives/2004/11/21/2167/
>
> I'd like comments/ideas. Am I the only one who feels we, as a
> profession, need to get with the program? Oh well.
>
> Cheers,
> Peter
>
> _______________________________________________
> aifia-members mailing list
> Post to this list: aifia-members at lists.ibiblio.org
> List information:
http://lists.ibiblio.org/mailman/listinfo/aifia-members
>
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 02:38:15 +0100
From: Peter Van Dijck <peter at poorbuthappy.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research?
To: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Cc: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <41A14307.4030701 at poorbuthappy.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
> Hoping it's not a Freudian slip :-) are you referring to IA throughout
your
> post or really AI?
IA - information architecture. Long day :)
P
------------------------------
Message: 5
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 22:31:01 -0500
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] Re: [aifia-members] IA research?
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC6C7A5.6272%listera at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Thomas Vander Wal:
> The whole design field, of which IA is only a part...
I'd think some people here would disagree with that.
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
------------------------------
Message: 6
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:04:20 +1300
From: AF Cossham <cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: Peter Van Dijck <peter at poorbuthappy.com>
Cc: sigia-l at asis.org
Message-ID: <BDC7CC94.D600%cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
I'm quite new to the field, so this is very much an outsider's
perspective.
(former cataloguing librarian, now lecturer in information and library
studies, and records and information management consultant)
But since I am trying to come to grips with this fascinating field all
at
once, I've been fairly ruthless and thorough in reading the literature
and
seeing how IA has developed. Have to say that I agree with Peter Van
Dijck's
blog entry - there is a dearth of stuff at the moment. Plus, I am very
conscious of the distance between, for example, what is discussed on
this
list and various websites, and the "older" literature - where IA was not
restricted to the web. Cross-disciplinary perspectives are definitely a
way
to go - with this most cross-disciplinary of all disciplines. To carve
out a
new niche, while still keeping up with what is happening elsewhere takes
considerable effort - on top of simply making a living!
As well, I wonder whether IA is a profession. Not sure that it has quite
reached that status yet (not disputing the professionalism of any of you
in
the field, just asking) - and I think that the development of a body of
research is one factor to consider here.
I've considered whether records managers are a profession, against a
number
of measures. The following article is most interesting:
Pemberton, J. Michael. "Records Management: Confronting Our Professional
Issues." Records Management Journal 8, no. 3 (1998): 5-18.
Pemberton uses eight characteristics against which he considers the
development of records management towards professionalism. The
characteristics are: abstract and practical knowledge, social relevance,
code of ethics, education, professional culture, autonomy, sense of
commitment and client service. "Taken together these characteristics
form a
model useful in gauging the progress of any occupation towards becoming
a
profession."
While he does not mention research specifically, I consider that it
comes
under abstract and practical knowledge, education, and possibly
professional
culture as well. Research is something that academics do too, and
scholarly
publishing is the outcome of this output. Unless I'm looking in all the
wrong places (tell me if I am!) I cannot locate any scholarly journal
publication dedicated to IA.
I think it will take more time, and effort on the part of all who
consider
themselves information architects. It will take a push from teaching
institutions to ensure graduates emerge willing to continue research. It
takes motivation from those working in the field to document and
evaluate
and then *disseminate* this information. It takes awareness of other
disciplines, which is an ongoing and constant process. It takes
awareness of
exactly WHAT information architecture actually is, a common ground.
This is my own ramble - thank you for reading.
Regards,
Amanda
Amanda Cossham
Lindisfarne Information Consulting Ltd
Phone: 025-309-013 or 04-388-6610
Address: 6 Arahanga Grove, Maupuia, Wellington 6003, New Zealand
------------------------------
Message: 7
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:19:41 -0500
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC6D30D.627A%listera at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
AF Cossham:
> I wonder whether IA is a profession.
May I refer the honorable gentlelady to these very words:
"I helped create the profession of information architecture..."
<http://snipurl.com/asxt>
Are you still in wonderment? :-)
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
------------------------------
Message: 8
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 15:26:47 +1100
From: Andrew Boyd <andrew_db at bigpond.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Cc: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <41A16A87.6050706 at bigpond.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed
Hi Ziya,
well, if Lou said it, then I believe it :)
Seriously, I am not sure that a body of available research defines a
profession... for example, we had blacksmiths for thousands of years
before we had widespread access to formal texts on metallurgy.
Cheers, Andrew
Listera wrote:
>AF Cossham:
>
>
>
>>I wonder whether IA is a profession.
>>
>>
>
>May I refer the honorable gentlelady to these very words:
>
>"I helped create the profession of information architecture..."
>
><http://snipurl.com/asxt>
>
>Are you still in wonderment? :-)
>
>Ziya
>Nullius in Verba
>
>
>
>------------
>When replying, please *trim your post* as much as possible.
>*Plain text, please; NO Attachments
>
>Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
>________________________________________
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>Changes to subscription: http://mail.asis.org/mailman/listinfo/sigia-l
>
>
>
--
_________________________________________
Andrew Boyd
Business Development Manager
Daily Basis P/L
Phone 02 6282 9797 or 02 4885 1357
Mobile 0412 641 074
Email andrew at dailybasis.com.au
or andrew_db at bigpond.com
_________________________________________
------------------------------
Message: 9
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:35:25 +1300
From: AF Cossham <cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: Listera <listera at rcn.com>, SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC7D3DD.D607%cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Yes; I do not disagree with that, and thank you for reminding me. But
was he
not speaking about those practising a range of activity which goes well
beyond the world wide web, intranets and the internet? I have a concern
that
IA has become too focused in one particular, technology heavy, area.
I would like to see it re-expand its horizons and take account of its
roots.
I still think Pemberton's eight aspects are relevant in the context of
Peter's call to "get on with the program".
Regards,
Amanda Cossham
> From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:19:41 -0500
> To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
>
> AF Cossham:
>
>> I wonder whether IA is a profession.
>
> May I refer the honorable gentlelady to these very words:
>
> "I helped create the profession of information architecture..."
>
> <http://snipurl.com/asxt>
>
> Are you still in wonderment? :-)
>
> Ziya
> Nullius in Verba
>
>
>
> ------------
> When replying, please *trim your post* as much as possible.
> *Plain text, please; NO Attachments
>
> Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
> ________________________________________
> Sigia-l mailing list -- post to: Sigia-l at asis.org
> Changes to subscription: http://mail.asis.org/mailman/listinfo/sigia-l
------------------------------
Message: 10
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:38:19 +1300
From: AF Cossham <cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: Listera <listera at rcn.com>, <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC7D48B.D608%cossham00 at xtra.co.nz>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Perhaps I should add that I have also read Richard Saul Wurman's works
as
extensively as they are available. It does not do to overlook the
origins of
information architecture, any more than it does to overlook
cross-disciplinary perspectives.
Regards,
Amanda Cossham
> From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
> Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:19:41 -0500
> To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
> Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
>
> AF Cossham:
>
>> I wonder whether IA is a profession.
>
> May I refer the honorable gentlelady to these very words:
>
> "I helped create the profession of information architecture..."
>
> <http://snipurl.com/asxt>
>
> Are you still in wonderment? :-)
>
> Ziya
> Nullius in Verba
>
>
>
> ------------
> When replying, please *trim your post* as much as possible.
> *Plain text, please; NO Attachments
>
> Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
> ________________________________________
> Sigia-l mailing list -- post to: Sigia-l at asis.org
> Changes to subscription: http://mail.asis.org/mailman/listinfo/sigia-l
------------------------------
Message: 11
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:54:32 -0500
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC6DB38.6290%listera at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
AF Cossham:
> But was he not speaking about those practising a range of activity
which goes
> well beyond the world wide web, intranets and the internet?
I wouldn't know.
One day I'm determined to help create the profession of beer making,
basket
weaving and bloodletting.:-)
I've addressed some of this on the list many months ago. For example:
<http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/0303/0237.html>
<http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/0303/0266.html>
<http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/0303/0703.html>
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
------------------------------
Message: 12
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:07:26 +1100
From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: sigia l <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC7CD4E.3A09F%eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
On 22/11/04 3:54 PM, "Listera" <listera at rcn.com> wrote:
> I've addressed some of this on the list many months ago.
do you make a distinction between an occupation, and a profession?
e.
------------------------------
Message: 13
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:18:28 -0500
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC6EEE4.629A%listera at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Eric Scheid:
> do you make a distinction between an occupation, and a profession?
No, because I try not to think of titles, professions, occupations,
careers,
licenses, guilds, fiefdoms, cliques, clubs, syndicates and the like.
Knowledge and curiosity know no borders.
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
------------------------------
Message: 14
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 17:28:44 +1100
From: Eric Scheid <eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: sigia l <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC7D24C.3A0B4%eric.scheid at ironclad.net.au>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
On 22/11/04 5:18 PM, "Listera" <listera at rcn.com> wrote:
>> do you make a distinction between an occupation, and a profession?
>
> No, because I try not to think of titles, professions, occupations,
careers,
> licenses, guilds, fiefdoms, cliques, clubs, syndicates and the like.
> Knowledge and curiosity know no borders.
So you make no distinction between an occupation that requires little to
no
training, and an occupation that requires extensive education* or
specialized training*?
Perversely, does this mean you place no value on education or
specialised
training, or even possibly knowledge and curiosity?
e.
* note I'm not suggesting "formal" education or training, let alone such
as
may be qualified by some assigned "standard", just the pursuit of
knowledge
and skill.
------------------------------
Message: 15
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 01:46:59 -0500
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <BDC6F593.62A2%listera at rcn.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="US-ASCII"
Eric Scheid:
> Perversely, does this mean you place no value on education...
Yep, that's what it means, I think people should stay uneducated and
those
with degrees, licenses and professions should own the ignorant ones like
the
worthless objects they are.
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
------------------------------
Message: 16
Date: Sun, 21 Nov 2004 23:54:48 -0800
From: Dmitry Nekrasovski <mail.dmitry at gmail.com>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research?
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <858e80430411212354202b1bb2 at mail.gmail.com>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> HCI, human factors, anthropology, ethnography and so on are coming to
and
> perhaps usurping AI because the problem spaces we investigate lead us
to
> questions that involve categorisation (AI) issues.
As a graduate student in HCI currently fascinated with (and possibly
soon to be looking for work in) IA, I'd like to dispute this statement
insofar as it applies to HCI. I don't think the problem is that HCI is
usurping IA, more that HCI is (mostly) unaware of IA:
- The most recent CHI conference had six entries containing IA as a
keyword, but most of them came from the design expo, a
practitioner-oriented track. None were full-length research papers.
- Search the CHI archive for "findability", and you will get no
results that are even remotely related to IA.
- Ask your average HCI researcher (well, at least my colleagues :)) if
they are familiar with IA, and you're likely to get either a blank
stare or a response to the effect of "isn't that something web
developers do?"
With respect to the original post, I definitely agree with the
statement "there is a lack of deep IA research" within the research
fields I am familiar with. Some of the reasons for this have already
been pointed out: the fact that the vast majority of IA's are
practitioners who have no time or inclination for research, the fact
that IA has no research forum of its own. I would also add to these a
general lack of awareness in the research community of what IA is,
what value it brings, and what interesting research problems can be
found within it.
Dmitry
--
Dmitry Nekrasovski
http://www.cs.ubc.ca/~dmitry
------------------------------
Message: 17
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 09:08:07 +0100
From: "Groot, Boyd de" <boyd.de.groot at satama.com>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] IA research? and professionalism
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID:
<F9926D32A30ED511B8E30050044AB52E0278A0E9 at ams010.satama.nl>
Content-Type: text/plain
>Yep, that's what it means, I think people should stay uneducated and
those
with
>degrees, licenses and professions should own the ignorant ones like the
worthless
>objects they are.
>
>Ziya
>Nullius in Verba
Kudos, Eric, that only took 2 questions. One would think that a
designer's
mind would be less predictable :-)
--Boyd
------------------------------
Message: 18
Date: Mon, 22 Nov 2004 00:16:34 -0800
From: "Patrick Neeman" <pat at bizquest.com>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] IA research?
To: "'SIGIA-L'" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Message-ID: <000101c4d06b$94e23fb0$c901a8c0 at laptop1>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> -----Original Message-----
> From: sigia-l-bounces at asis.org
> [mailto:sigia-l-bounces at asis.org] On Behalf Of Dmitry Nekrasovski
> Sent: Sunday, November 21, 2004 11:55 PM
> To: SIGIA-L
> Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] IA research?
> As a graduate student in HCI currently fascinated with (and
> possibly soon to be looking for work in) IA, I'd like to
> dispute this statement insofar as it applies to HCI. I don't
> think the problem is that HCI is usurping IA, more that HCI
> is (mostly) unaware of IA:
I think it's just polite ignorance...
P@
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End of Sigia-l Digest, Vol 2, Issue 27
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