[Sigia-l] My gratitude

[Patrick Grizzard]

<snip>
Before we all hoist Ziya on our collective shoulders and parade him through 
the metaphorical streets to the accolades of adoring crowds...
</snip>

I am a new member of the SIGIA-L and relatively new to the practice of IA. In the weeks leading up to the start of this thread, I had a long debate with myself over whether to filter Ziya's posts. Yes, they do contain a great deal of useful knowledge and I appreciated his thoroughnes in examing the nuts and bolts of various issues from many angles. But they also bristle with passive-aggressive hostility and he appears to value argumentation merely for the sake of conflict, and, ultimately, I would imagine, for the sake of winning the argument and the personal satisfaction derived therein. Ultimately, my irritation won out and I implemented the filter, though I must confess that I still occasionally go through my Delete box to read Ziya's contributions, sometimes out of morbid curiosity, other times because I might have actually missed something useful.

Now, while I don't advocate any form of censorship, I do find it odd that so many people here have conflated the quality of the speech with the right to say it. I'll defend anyone's right to express themself, but there's a line between advocating that right and agreeing with the content of the speech. Does the fact that Larry Flynt fought censorship necessarily impart some eloquence to Hustler, or mitigate it's tactical intent to shock and offend? Again, while I don't advocate censorship, I'm surprised at how many people have jumped on the bandwagon to champion someone who uses this forum to act as a provacatuer (albeit, one who happens to have an extensive and useful knowledge about the topic at hand). It is possible to protect without endorsing and, from what I've seen of this list so far, I would have expected a less bandwagon-esque atmosphere.

I realize the Larry Flynt metaphor may seem a little extreme, but I think it's useful because the solutions are analagous. If you find a particular magazine offensive, don't read it. If you feel that you are not being engaged in a dialogue on this list or, worse, that you are being treated abusively, simply use your filter and don't respond to the responsible parties. There's no need for anyone to feel victimized on this list (at least not repeatedly) unless we allow others to victimize us. Inflamed as tempers may get, this is the virtual world, afterall. No one is being physically coerced into reading (Which leads me to a brief digression: I'm very curious if Ziya's online persona conforms to his real world demeanor?). At any rate, those who complain about an individual's behavior but continue to engage that individual in discusion are, finally, allowing themselves to be manipulated. In the words of Jay-Z, "A wise man once told me/Don't argue with fools/'Cause people from a distance/Can't tell who's who." IOW, by engaging certain people, you provide them with their raison d'etre. But a provacatuer without an audience makes as much noise as a tree falling in the woods.


Patrick Grizzard



-----Original Message-----
From: Brenda Janish <brendaj at interaccess.com>
Sent: Mar 11, 2004 1:37 PM
To: SIGIA-L <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] My gratitude

Before we all hoist Ziya on our collective shoulders and parade him through 
the metaphorical streets to the accolades of adoring crowds...

Can we please move on to another topic?!?




At 03:32 PM 3/11/2004, Pradyot Rai wrote:
>Yesterday I was just surfing when I came across this quote --
>
>"First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, then
>you win." --Mahatma Gandhi
>
>I remember Howard Dean famously quoted it last time, however it is very
>apt to this scenario :)
>
>Prady
>
>-----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> > I've been overwhelmed with all the email of support and concern that I
> > received privately as well as on the list. I apologize for not being able
> > to
> > thank you individually as I want to and as I will as soon as I can. I'm
> > under a severe deadline to complete the IA/design of a webcasting app that
> > needs to go online very soon. But thank you, you have my gratitude.
> >
> > I may have a thing or two to say about the matter, later.:-) But I wanted
> > to
> > make a note of three things here very briefly.
> >
> > I'm delighted that so many people on/off the list, lurkers and barkers
> > alike, stood up to defend anyone's right to contribute and rejected the
> > notion of a double standard, hopefully the list is self-inoculated against
> > bureaucratization and favoritism.
> >
> > I'm also heartened by a lot of people's realization that criticizing
> > somebody's assertions and attacking them personally are two different
> > things, despite the attempts of those who'd like to cloud the issue and
> > avoid a rigorous examinations of their biases under the banner of victim
> > hood.
> >
> > This list is still the premier venue on the web for discussing all manner
> > of
> > issues concerning the broader umbrella of IA, not in spite of the
> > sometimes
> > spirited exchanges it hosts, but precisely because of it. Those who don't
> > participate in the list and shy away from lively debate (no matter what
> > their stated excuse happens to be) do so because of their own choice, not
> > because there's anything broken with the list. And the SIGIA-L can be
> > proud
> > of that.
> >
> > Ziya
> > Nullius in Verba
> >
> >
> > ------------
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> > *Plain text, please; NO Attachments
> >
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> >
> >
>
>
>
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