[Sigia-l] In defence of Ziya ... WAS Re[2]: Let's be helpful...

[Betsy Martens]

I'd like to throw down with this opinion as well. It's utterly 
repugnant to me that anyone would be singled out for muzzling.

And I'm completely baffled because over the years I've seen blunt, 
abrupt and pointed posts from some of the very same people who so 
object to Ziya's style of posting blunt, abrupt and pointed messages.

Isn't this what we refer to as a double standard?

Anything else I might have to say about this has been stated eloquently 
enough by others. Except for one thing: regardless of complaints, 
SIG-IA still seems to be *the* place where people post questions, seek 
help, etc. Even if you discount increased volume due to these 
occasional style skirmishes (or, to be fair, Ziya going off on a small 
secondary point), this still appears to be the reference list of choice 
for IA matters. Neither AIFIA nor AIGA XD list have anywhere near as 
much participation.

So why don't we just go for the big societal model of community instead 
of the small, like-minded group model? It actually seems to be working.

Betsy Martens
Big Shoulders Information Design
Chicago, Illinois
****big, brawling, dialectical melting pot****
bigshoulders at mindspring.com


On Wednesday, March 10, 2004, at 02:58 PM, Mike Brown wrote:

> Over the past 3-4 years I've lurked on this list, and in general found
> it a very valuable resource. I've also been a little more active on
> the webdesign-L list. Ziya has posted on both.
>
> My attitude towards his postings has undergone an 180 degree reversal.
> At first I got annoyed by how often he posted, his tone, the (what I
> then saw as) nitpicking he engaged in.
>
> Over time, and especially on this list, I've turned completely around
> in my estimation. To my mind, Ziya presents a pretty consistent 
> worldview -
> knowlegeable, skeptical, practical and, yes, helpful.
>
> Yes he posts a lot. Surely more a reflection on the frequency of
> others posting?
>
> Yes he's often pedantic, calls people on what they mean by the words
> they use, and defends himself to the death :) Mostly that's good!
> Words are often used too loosely.
>
> And, finally, yes he does seem prepared to challenge accepted
> "truths", practices, standards and the use of Visio. I enjoy that from
> him. I may not agree. I may not understand. But I invariably know more
> after the debate has happened.
>
> If people are too scared to post, or not prepared to defend views, or
> want reinforcement and acceptance rather than constructive criticism,
> then that's their problem rather than the lists. Harden up a little!
> :)
>
> And no, I'm not at all, and ever, defending personal attacks on the
> list.
>
> Listera> An undeclared and what can only be a tiny but vocal fraction 
> of the total
> Listera> population of this list has apparently asked the list 
> moderator to muzzle me
> Listera> by singling me out for special posting approval.
>
> What does the above mean? That you have to get approval to post???
>
>
> Anyways, I'm much more interested in IA than debating how the list
> works/should work, and the actions of certain people on it, but I did
> feel I should speak up with my opinion that Ziya's presence makes this
> a much more valuable list.
>
> Regards
>
> Mike Brown
>
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