[Sigia-l] RE: Sigia-l digest, Vol 1 #499 - 22 msgs
Hoyle, Tom
Tom.Hoyle at bankofamerica.com
Mon Apr 14 11:24:23 EDT 2003
Please unsubscribe me.
Tom Hoyle
Bank of America
e-Commerce User Experience
415-436-5649
-----Original Message-----
From: sigia-l-request at asis.org [mailto:sigia-l-request at asis.org]
Sent: Wednesday, April 09, 2003 9:01 AM
To: sigia-l at asis.org
Subject: Sigia-l digest, Vol 1 #499 - 22 msgs
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Today's Topics:
1. Prominence in Short Lists (Dan Saffer)
2. TONIGHT- Reminder: You're Invited- NYC Web Producers Organization (m o
r r y)
3. RE: Prominence in Short Lists (jess at cognissa.com)
4. RE: Prominence in Short Lists (Vanessa Wolfe-Coote)
5. RE: new Yahoo! search (Michael Hinnant)
6. RE: Prominence in Short Lists (Dan Saffer)
7. RE: Prominence in Short Lists (alfred at thunderstick.com)
8. RE: Prominence in Short Lists (Matthew Rehkopf)
9. Re: new Yahoo! search (Listera)
10. CMS run amok (Listera)
11. STC on IA (Beth Mazur)
12. RE: new Yahoo! search (Madhu Menon)
13. RE: visual thinking, by rudolf arnheim (Boniface Lau)
14. RE: new Yahoo! search (Boniface Lau)
15. RE: new Yahoo! search (Boniface Lau)
16. RE: new Yahoo! search (Boniface Lau)
17. Your magazine nominated for a webby (Christina Wodtke)
18. Re: new Yahoo! search (Christina Wodtke)
19. Re: new Yahoo! search (Madhu Menon)
20. =?utf-8?B?U1Y6IFtTaWdpYS1sXSBuZXcgWWFob28hIHNlYXJjaA==?=
(=?utf-8?B?U3RpZyBWIEFuZGVyc2VuICAgICBEUi1JTlRFUkFLVElW?=)
21. Re: new Yahoo! search (Simon Wistow)
22. Re: SV: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search (John O'Donovan)
--__--__--
Message: 1
From: "Dan Saffer" <interactiondesign at hotmail.com>
To: "SIGIA" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:54:53 -0400
Subject: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
A quick question:
In short lists (say, of four objects), if all are displayed at once, do
the top and bottom items get the most prominence, or is it the first
items that do? Examples:
Item X
Item X with complications
Item Y
Item Y with complications
Or
Item X
Item Y
Item X with complications
Item Y with complications
Or
Item X
Item X with complications
Item Y with complications
Item Y
Figuring that Items X and Y will be chosen much more often than the
"with complications" items, what is the best way to list them? Opinions?
These are going to be radio buttons, btw...
Dan
dan saffer . sr. interaction designer
ameritrade . dsaffer at datek.com
--__--__--
Message: 2
From: "m o r r y" <morry at webproducers.org>
To: "SIGIA" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:06:33 -0400
Subject: [Sigia-l] TONIGHT- Reminder: You're Invited- NYC Web Producers
Organization
Morry Galonoy and Web Producers Organization invite you to our next event:
NYC Chapter Gathering
Date: Tuesday April 8, 2003
Time: 7:00 PM
Where:
Fez (in Time Cafe)
380 Lafayette Street
(at Great Jones)
New York, NY 10003
Map and Directions: http://www.feznyc.com/directions/index.html
Web Producers Organization www.webproducers.org
--__--__--
Message: 3
Reply-To: jess at cognissa.com
From: "jess at cognissa.com" <jess at cognissa.com>
To: sigia-l at asis.org
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 12:50:05 -0400
Short answer: Primacy and recency effects do change "prominence" in lists,=
but in a shorter list, with 4 items, where you have two items that are mor=
e
frequently chosen, positions 1 & 2 are good=2E The list isn't long enough =
for
the primacy effect for the first couple items to decay before the user
makes their choice=2E
This is a case where Miller's 7+/-2 actually has some relevance - primacy
and recency effects are strongest when the number of concurrent items to
choose from must be held in short-term memory (ie you can't see them all o=
n
the screen) and exceed the user's short term memory capacity=2E With four
items displayed concurrently, you're fine=2E For long <select> lists, long=
lists of links (like a blogroll), etc=2E primacy and recency have more
applicability=2E
cheers,
Jess
--------------------------------------------------------------------
mail2web - Check your email from the web at
http://mail2web=2Ecom/ =2E
--__--__--
Message: 4
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:11:04 +0100
From: "Vanessa Wolfe-Coote" <vanessa.wolfecoote at npsa.nhs.uk>
To: "SIGIA" <sigia-l at asis.org>
It would also depend on the impact of the user making those choices:=20
- Is it acceptable for the user to choose the most popular options?
(then it would make sense to keep them near the top)
- Or do you want to encourage the user to make an informed selection
based on having read all of the items? (then perhaps the items should be
mixed)
Also, would your list expand in the future? This may also impact on the
ordering.
Cheers
Vanessa
--__--__--
Message: 5
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 11:41:59 -0700
From: "Michael Hinnant" <michael.hinnant at infospace.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
tom smith said:
> I also like the fact that they've made an attempt to visually=20
> communicate "open in a new window"...their little icon may become the=20
> standard, you never know...I also like the fact that results are=20
> numbered (did google's used to be?)
>=20
Well, I don't know about creating a standard, but I do remember seeing =
that same icon and "open in a new window" functionality on several =
search sites about 5 or 6 years ago... I think it was on HotBot and =
maybe AltaVista? My memory of sites in the mid-nineties is getting =
fuzzy, but I remember several icons attached to someone's search =
results, one of them looking and functioning exactly like the yahoo =
icon.
Cheers,
--
Michael Hinnant | Information Architect
Wireless User Experience Group | InfoSpace Inc
--__--__--
Message: 6
From: "Dan Saffer" <interactiondesign at hotmail.com>
To: "'Vanessa Wolfe-Coote'" <vanessa.wolfecoote at npsa.nhs.uk>,
"'SIGIA'" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 15:02:03 -0400
It is acceptable for the user to choose the most popular options. Since
the list is short, the user will see all the options in front of her.
And the list won't expand. The question is where should the most popular
items be placed in a short list.
Dan
dan saffer . sr. interaction designer
ameritrade . dsaffer at datek.com
--__--__--
Message: 7
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:09:19 -0400 (EDT)
From: alfred at thunderstick.com
To: Dan Saffer <interactiondesign at hotmail.com>
Cc: "'Vanessa Wolfe-Coote'" <vanessa.wolfecoote at npsa.nhs.uk>,
"'SIGIA'" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
I'm in favor of alpha order in almost every case ... easier to mentally
parse the options usually.
On Tue, 8 Apr 2003, Dan Saffer wrote:
> It is acceptable for the user to choose the most popular options. Since
> the list is short, the user will see all the options in front of her.
> And the list won't expand. The question is where should the most popular
> items be placed in a short list.
>
> Dan
>
> dan saffer . sr. interaction designer
> ameritrade . dsaffer at datek.com
> ------------
> When replying, please *trim your post* as much as possible.
> *Plain text, please; NO Attachments
>
> Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
> ________________________________________
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> Changes to subscription: http://mail.asis.org/mailman/listinfo/sigia-l
>
--__--__--
Message: 8
From: Matthew Rehkopf <matt.rehkopf at experiencethread.com>
To: SIGIA <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] Prominence in Short Lists
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 16:13:37 -0400
Dan asked:
"Figuring that Items X and Y will be chosen much more often than the
"with complications" items, what is the best way to list them?"
My stats class covered this topic fairly well. The text (Statistics and
Research Methods for Managerial Decisions, Davies/Utts/Simon, 2002) cites
M.Parten in "Surveys, Polls, and Samples (New York: Harper & Row, 1950);
pp.210-211 as stating that if alternatives in the measurement instrument are
lengthy or complex, or if the respondent does not feel strongly about the
subject, the alternative *presented last* will be chosen more often than
others.
It goes on to say that if you expect this bias, you should use the
"split-ballot technique", where separate instruments are developed, rotating
the order of the alternatives so that each alternative appears in the final
position as equal number of times.
Matt
--__--__--
Message: 9
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 17:14:01 -0400
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
"tom smith" wrote:
> That's it, I've gone from love to hate in 3 easy gripes...
So it didn't take you very long to discover the basic business proposition
behind Yahoo's new search scheme. :-) Let's listen to what Yahoo says:
"We are trying to integrate our content to make searches easier and faster
and smarter," said Jeff Weiner, the senior vice president at Yahoo's search
operation. "That really starts to change the game."
[...]
Mr. Weiner said the growing use of Google had changed the way people shop
online. For years, Yahoo and other shopping sites assumed users wanted to
click on various categories of merchandise to browse through available
products much as they comb through racks in a store.
"The way people shop has changed,'` he said. "Instead of browsing, people
are using search and typing what they want into a search box."
Yahoo Plans Improvements in Effort to Regain Lost Ground
<http://www.nytimes.com/2003/04/07/technology/07YAHO.html>
So it's all about shopping. :-)
This should remind us of the TV model. A handful of networks dominate TV
viewing, just as Yahoo, Google and MSN pretty much dominate the vast
majority of searches on the web. On TV, programs are what's tolerated
between commercials. So now we have search results sandwiched between
shopping leads on the web. We can safely predict that the frequency and
intrusiveness of web ads on search sites to increase substantially, given
the pressures of the business model pursued here.
Will this work? Will we tolerate overt and covert commercial insinuation on
something as basic as search in what's supposed to be an interactive medium?
I don't know. The the ad-supported 'free' TV model has been very lucrative
for many decades, but has lost a huge chunk of its appeal and control in the
past few years. Do we have another choice? Unless someone else provides
ad-free search as good as Yahoo, we don't. The price of 'free' searches
seems to be more than banner ads. You decide which one's worse. :-)
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
--__--__--
Message: 10
Date: Tue, 08 Apr 2003 18:21:20 -0400
From: Listera <listera at rcn.com>
To: 'sigia' <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: [Sigia-l] CMS run amok
I've long made a living by automating stuff, but I always held that
full-automation is brittle. I just noticed a sad example of this today going
over The Atlantic site.
At this link, you'll see a modest drawing in memory of Michael Kelly, the
Atlantic editor recently killed in Iraq:
<http://www.theatlantic.com/unbound/sage/ss2003-04-07.htm>
Check out the 'shopping' line directly underneath:
"Click here to buy Sage, Ink cartoons on T-shirts, sweatshirts, mugs, or
mousepads!"
Full-automation is a curse.
Ziya
Nullius in Verba
--__--__--
Message: 11
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:13:49 -0400
To: sigia-l at asis.org
From: Beth Mazur <bowseat at bethmazur.com>
Subject: [Sigia-l] STC on IA
Lou's weblog (http://louisrosenfeld.com/home/bloug_archive/000161.html)
prompted me to contact the STC* office and see if they'd publish Mir Haynes'
cover article, "Information Architecture: You Do It, You Just Don't Know It"
for general consumption. I'm pleased to say that they've done just that.
You can get HTML here: http://www.stc.org/news/Info_Architects.asp or
PDF here: http://www.stc.org/news/PDF/Haynes.pdf.
As I mentioned in my weblog, I think this article is mis-titled; Haynes is
not
really saying that tech writers are "doing" IA unaware. Also, this article
doesn't include anything new for longtime SIGIA readers. But I think
she is (correctly) pointing out that the skills that make good tech writers
are a great foundation for (some flavor of) IA work.
Beth Mazur
IDblog: http://idblog.org
* Society for Technical Communication, 25K members, http://www.stc.org
Conference: STC at 50 (http://www.stc.org/50thConf), 5/18-21, Dallas
SIGs: Information Design SIG (http://www.stcsig.org/id),
Usability SIG (http://www.stcsig.org/usability),
Online SIG (http://www.stcsig.org/oi/www.html), and
Special Needs SIG (http://www.stcsig.org/sn), among others
--__--__--
Message: 12
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 04:47:49 +0530
To: sigia-l at asis.org
From: Madhu Menon <webguru at vsnl.net>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
At 10:45 PM 07-04-03, Andres Sulleiro wrote:
>How about the little subliminal advertising of the Boxesandarrows site
>in the tour? Very sneaky in deed ;)
>http://search.yahoo.com/new_search_tour/tour_toolbar.html
Not that useful to the huge majority of people who use Yahoo and AREN'T
Information Architects, or even web developers.
Aha!
Regards,
Madhu
--__--__--
Message: 13
From: "Boniface Lau" <boniface_lau at compuserve.com>
To: "'sigia'" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] visual thinking, by rudolf arnheim
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:58:04 -0400
> From: sigia-l-admin at asis.org [mailto:sigia-l-admin at asis.org]On
> Behalf Of Christopher Fahey [askrom]
>
> > Seeing in a "cold-blooded way" is a form of detachment
> > required to truly master a craft.
>
> I can think of lots of masters of lots of crafts who could hardly be
> described as "cold-blooded"
Being able to see in a cold-blooded way does not mean the person is
cold-blooded.
Boniface
--__--__--
Message: 14
From: "Boniface Lau" <boniface_lau at compuserve.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:58:22 -0400
> From: sigia-l-admin at asis.org [mailto:sigia-l-admin at asis.org]On
> Behalf Of Christina Wodtke
>
[...]
>
> I will say this: almost every conference room at Yahoo has 5.5 as
> its browser: I know it works on that browser at least.
But does it work reliably across systems?
The new Yahoo! search uses cross-domain form - a troublesome
mechanism. Depending on the IE version and the Windows/IE service
packs already applied to a system, cross-domain form may not work. In
that case, users cannot even submit an Yahoo! search.
Thus, Yahoo! search might work with the browser version on the system
in Yahoo! conference rooms but failed on another system with the same
browser version. Having the primary function (search term submission)
depends on a troublesome mechanism is hardly a robust design.
> I think it's you. :)
Wow! When people have problem with your product, the issue is with
them instead of your product. Way to go! ;-)
Boniface
--__--__--
Message: 15
From: "Boniface Lau" <boniface_lau at compuserve.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:58:39 -0400
> From: sigia-l-admin at asis.org [mailto:sigia-l-admin at asis.org]On
> Behalf Of Michael Hinnant
>
[...]
>
> Well, I don't know about creating a standard, but I do remember
> seeing that same icon and "open in a new window" functionality on
> several search sites about 5 or 6 years ago... I think it was on
> HotBot and maybe AltaVista?
I prefer the text indicators used by:
http://vivisimo.com
Unlike small icons (which quickly lose their legibility in a high
resolution display), text indicators scale very well. Vivisimo offers
various ways of opening a window:
"[New Window]" opens a window using whatever OS configuration.
"[Full Window]" opens a window in full screen.
"[Preview]" open a window within the result listing. Very handy for
quick scan and comparison. You don't have to keep dozens of separate
windows.
You can configure Vivisimo's output via:
http://vivisimo.com/form?form=Advanced
Boniface
--__--__--
Message: 16
From: "Boniface Lau" <boniface_lau at compuserve.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 19:58:49 -0400
> From: sigia-l-admin at asis.org [mailto:sigia-l-admin at asis.org]On
> Behalf Of Listera
>
[...]
> So now we have search results sandwiched between shopping leads on
> the web.
Google clearly indicates the sponsor links with a distinct background
color and place them on the side. Yahoo! does not.
ISTM, Yahoo! wants to trick users into clicking on the sponsor links.
Boniface
--__--__--
Message: 17
From: "Christina Wodtke" <cwodtke at eleganthack.com>
To: "'sigia'" <sigia-l at asis.org>
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 21:47:43 -0700
Subject: [Sigia-l] Your magazine nominated for a webby
http://www.webbyawards.com/main/webby_awards/nominees.html
Boxes and Arrows was nominated for a webby.
You've come a long way baby.
--__--__--
Message: 18
From: "Christina Wodtke" <cwodtke at eleganthack.com>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Tue, 8 Apr 2003 22:00:13 -0700
Gosh, some people are sour--
We needed a site to show that wouldn't sue us that wasn't Yahoo-- it was
recommended I use my blog, but I thought it might be nice to give kudos to
the hard working webby nominated team at B&A in a subtle way. it just needed
to be site-that-isn't yahoo, and indeed it is.
cheer up, life is short and exactly as nice as you make it. Go read the
lovely editorial by chief editor of the webby nominated magazine
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/archives/coloring_outside_the_lines.php
and sniff a rose or something.
You know, I never dug the webbys except as a darn good party-- but I'm way
kinda excited.
----- Original Message -----
From: "Madhu Menon" <webguru at vsnl.net>
To: <sigia-l at asis.org>
Sent: Tuesday, April 08, 2003 4:17 PM
Subject: RE: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
> At 10:45 PM 07-04-03, Andres Sulleiro wrote:
> >How about the little subliminal advertising of the Boxesandarrows site
> >in the tour? Very sneaky in deed ;)
> >http://search.yahoo.com/new_search_tour/tour_toolbar.html
>
> Not that useful to the huge majority of people who use Yahoo and AREN'T
> Information Architects, or even web developers.
>
> Aha!
>
> Regards,
>
> Madhu
>
> ------------
> When replying, please *trim your post* as much as possible.
> *Plain text, please; NO Attachments
>
> Searchable list archive: http://www.info-arch.org/lists/sigia-l/
> ________________________________________
> Sigia-l mailing list -- post to: Sigia-l at asis.org
> Changes to subscription: http://mail.asis.org/mailman/listinfo/sigia-l
--__--__--
Message: 19
Date: Wed, 09 Apr 2003 12:58:57 +0530
To: sigia-l at asis.org
From: Madhu Menon <webguru at vsnl.net>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
At 10:30 AM 09-04-03, Christina Wodtke wrote:
>Gosh, some people are sour--
Not at all. I may have forgotten to include a smiley, but I have nothing to
be sour about.
>We needed a site to show that wouldn't sue us that wasn't Yahoo-- it was
>recommended I use my blog,
I see. Well... I'm not a mind reader you know. The original poster said it
was a "plug" for B&A, so I opined that if that were the intention, it
wasn't particularly well-targeted.
No biggie.
Madhu
<<< * >>>
Madhu Menon
Admin - http://www.evolt.org
3500+ web developers can't be wrong
Join at http://lists.evolt.org/thelist
--__--__--
Message: 20
From: =?utf-8?B?U3RpZyBWIEFuZGVyc2VuICAgICBEUi1JTlRFUkFLVElW?= <STAN at dr.dk>
To: =?utf-8?B?Q2hyaXN0aW5hIFdvZHRrZQ==?= <cwodtke at eleganthack.com>,
Sigia-l at asis.org
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:20:13 +0200
Subject: [Sigia-l] =?utf-8?B?U1Y6IFtTaWdpYS1sXSBuZXcgWWFob28hIHNlYXJjaA==?=
At Danish Broadcasting Corporation we recieve many user comments every day.
95% are negative like the kind of stuff Boniface and others enrich us all
with. And they almost always just complain. Never suggest solutions. E.g
"Why doesn't it work on Linux?", "Your Shockwave-games runs slow on my Mac",
"IE 5.5 isn't supported" (dialogue with user almost always show they have a
wrong client setup). You never hear from the majority of users that looove
your site.
One should listen to user comments, but don't let them get keep you awake at
night. They are very biased. Chin up!
I - and I'll bet many on this list use Yahoo! from time to time, and I find
myself comming back. That's pretty good. And I - and probably most of us
here visit B&A frequently. That VERY good going. Tip hat!
Best regards
Stig Andersen
DR/Danish Broadcasting Corporation
Senior Information Architect
P: +45 35 20 33 35
E: <mailto:stan at dr.dk> stan at dr.dk
Gosh, some people are sour--
We needed a site to show that wouldn't sue us that wasn't Yahoo-- it was
recommended I use my blog, but I thought it might be nice to give kudos to
the hard working webby nominated team at B&A in a subtle way. it just needed
to be site-that-isn't yahoo, and indeed it is.
cheer up, life is short and exactly as nice as you make it. Go read the
lovely editorial by chief editor of the webby nominated magazine
http://www.boxesandarrows.com/archives/coloring_outside_the_lines.php
<http://www.boxesandarrows.com/archives/coloring_outside_the_lines.php>
and sniff a rose or something.
You know, I never dug the webbys except as a darn good party-- but I'm way
kinda excited.
--__--__--
Message: 21
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 10:49:38 +0100
From: Simon Wistow <simon at thegestalt.org>
To: sigia-l at asis.org
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
On Tue, Apr 08, 2003 at 07:58:49PM -0400, Boniface Lau said:
> Google clearly indicates the sponsor links with a distinct background
> color and place them on the side. Yahoo! does not.
I'm curious. Does having them in a different section to normal search
results with the title "SPONSOR RESULTS (What's this?)" in red not
actually count?
http://new.search.yahoo.com/search?p=san+francisco
I admit that I may be biased because I work on the search team at Yahoo!
but still ...
... anyway, I'm in agreement with Christina - it's very frustrating
watching people saying bizarrely stupid things (I'm not implying you
Boniface) on various forums and not being able to respond.
In parting I'd remind you all that you are not average web users.
Simon
--__--__--
Message: 22
Reply-To: "John O'Donovan" <jod at adito.net>
From: "John O'Donovan" <jod at badhangover.net>
To: <Sigia-l at asis.org>
Subject: Re: [Sigia-l] SV: [Sigia-l] new Yahoo! search
Date: Wed, 9 Apr 2003 12:58:24 +0100
> At Danish Broadcasting Corporation we recieve many user comments every
day.
> 95% are negative like the kind of stuff Boniface and others enrich us all
> with. And they almost always just complain. Never suggest solutions. E.g
> "Why doesn't it work on Linux?", "Your Shockwave-games runs slow on my
Mac",
> "IE 5.5 isn't supported" (dialogue with user almost always show they have
a
> wrong client setup). You never hear from the majority of users that
looove
> your site.
Tell me about it - you can never please all the people, all the time.
For example, a recent usability study conducted for a product that shall
have to remain nameless found that when left alone, people quickly learnt
how to use they system and spent lots of time interacting with it, generated
few errors and often followed through to browse deep information.
When they spoke to other users all they talked about was how difficult they
found it to use. What you gonna do?
Of course there is a way to effectively deal with this. For example, go to:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/pressoffice/pressreleases/stories/2002/10_october/29/pc
u.shtml
and scroll down to the "Complaints may be registered online" link.
Doesn't work does it. Who wants to be the first to complain...
Cheers,
jod
--__--__--
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